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Thread: Interpreting Canadian Antique Gun Rules

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    Business Member Old Guns Canada's Avatar
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    Interpreting Canadian Antique Gun Rules

    Before I continue, please note that I am not a lawyer or police officer, and my knowledge of Canadian Antique Gun Law is based strictly on my own experience and observations. The “Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms” (SOR/98-464) states that a firearm is deemed antique if it is one of the following (I am leaving out shotguns and rifles):
    1. A reproduction of a flintlock, wheel-lock or matchlock firearm, other than a handgun, manufactured after 1897.
    Handguns
    2. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is either a muzzle-loading gun or capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.
    3. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.
    From the above extract you can see that the rules are quite clear, and anyone who owns or purchases an antique firearm is well advised to obtain an “antique declaration” from the RCMP Firearms Technical Division. Although this process is voluntary, it may prevent future headaches. To recap, let us look at the rules:
    1. This rule states clearly that no handgun, no matter what sort of ignition system it uses, is considered antique if it was manufactured after 1897. Rifles and shotguns are exceptions.
    2. Any rim fire hand gun made before 1898 (and that is January 1, 1898) is deemed to be antique unless it is a .22. Reason being that you can still buy .22 ammo through commercial channels. .22’s are never considered antique in Canada, no matter how old.
    3. This is the big one: Any center fire handgun made before January 1, 1898 is deemed antique unless it was originally chambered or has been adapted or redesigned to accept one of the following calibers:
    a. .32 Short Colt
    b. .32 Long Colt
    c. .32 Smith and Wesson
    d. .32 Smith and Wesson Long
    e. .38 Long Colt
    f. .38 S&W
    g. .38-40 Winchester
    h. .44-40 Winchester
    i. .45 Colt (which apparently does not include ACP)
    It should be noted here that guns firing .25 and .32 centerfire cartridges are already considered prohibited, no matter the age.
    It should also be noted that it is the owner’s responsibility to prove the age of the gun to the Technical Division. If they cannot ascertain the gun’s age or caliber with certainty, the application will be rejected. Here are a few helpful facts:
    European made guns are sometimes easy to date, because European countries have had state-run proofing houses for several centuries. Belgium is perhaps the best, and most thorough system. The letters ELG (Eprouve a Liege Garantie, meaning Guaranteed Liege Proof) is the standard state proof mark, in conjunction with an inspector’s mark. Depending on the mark, a gun can be easily dated:
    - ELG in an oval, with a capital letter under a crown means the gun was made before 1877.
    - ELG in an oval with a capital letter under a star means the gun was made between 1877 and 1893.
    - ELG with a crown above it and a capital letter under a star, (and usually the letter “R” with a crown above it) means the gun was made after 1894, and may have been made as late as last week, because this arrangement of proof marks has not changed… the only way you may be able to prove to the RCMP that your gun is antique is if it is marked with a maker’s name and that maker went out of business before 1898.
    German, French and British guns are less easy to date based on proof marks, and American made guns are impossible to date this way, because the US do not have a proofing system. Not all is lost, however as it is often easy to date an American or European gun by either the serial number (Colt, S&W and Remington records are still available) or even just the name. For example, the company of Forehand & Wadsworth changed its name to Forehand Arms when Wadsworth retired in 1890. Therefore any gun marked “Forehand And Wadsworth” is guaranteed to be antique (if it is in an acceptable caliber). Forehand Arms went out of business in 1898 – so it may be difficult to prove a Forehand Arms gun to be pre-1898. Harrington and Richardson, on the other hand continued to make hand guns until the 1940’s and it depends on the model if it is considered antique or not. Hopkins and Allen is another of these cases where it depends on the model of gun: the XL series was made pre-1898, as were their “Blue Jackets”, however their “Vest Pocket Deringer” was made as late as 1915. So, you can see the collector has to be vigilant, and do his research…
    A final note on “conversions”: there are some antique hand guns which were duly converted from one type of caliber or ignition system to another, mostly percussion revolvers converted to either rim fire or center fire cartridges, “back in the day”. They are usually still considered antique, unless the conversion was to a caliber listed above in the “exceptions”. Based on my conversations with the RCMP Technical Division, a gun cannot “gain” or “lose” its status. This means, an antique will still be considered antique, even if it was converted to a modern caliber (except those listed as exeptions), and one which was originally exempt from antique status cannot be made “antique” by changing the caliber to one which is not exempt…Sound confusing? It is, and you better check with the RCMP before you buy a converted antique, or attempt to convert one yourself.
    As an importer of antique guns from the US and Europe, all my merchandise has to be verified by the RCMP and in due time I do receive the “Antique Declarations” which I always forward to my customers. It is only when I buy at a Canadian show that I may not have the letter, but I can either apply on my customers’ behalf, or they can do it themselves. There is no cost involved at this time.
    I hope you find this information useful. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
    Last edited by Old Guns Canada; 10-05-2023 at 08:03 PM.

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    "This is the big one: Any center fire handgun made before January 1, 1898 is deemed antique unless it was originally chambered or has been adapted or redesigned to accept one of the following calibers:"


    This is what I am wondering about, based on s. 7 from the Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms:

    "A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge: (insert list of calibers).


    My interpretation is also that, if a firearm manufactured prior to 1898 was originally chambered in any of the prescribed calibers, it can never be an antique.

    This is most annoying. If I want a Colt SAA in .38SPL, it'll have to have been originally chambered in something like .41 Long Colt and then rechambered.

    I've seen a few of the pre-1898 Colt SAA's that have been rechambered for .38SPL, but all appear to have started out life as .45LC.

    The search continues...

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    BANNED brandon_ha's Avatar
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    You are incorrect in your assessment of antiques being bound by the 25 and 32 caliber prohibition. A look through the frt tables will quickly confirm this.

    Won’t elaborate any further as i don’t want to edge into advertising in a thread, but there’s some unique options.

    Pm me and we can talk about it Chris.






    As for cpollock, they don’t seem to be of that concern, but interpretation can change by the day. You may wish to reach out to the rcmp forearms lab for their latest interpretation, but as of my most recent conversation with them they don’t care of the original caliber. Ymmv ianal etc etc. check before you go investing.

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    Business Member Old Guns Canada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brandon_ha View Post
    You are incorrect in your assessment of antiques being bound by the 25 and 32 caliber prohibition. A look through the frt tables will quickly confirm this.

    Won’t elaborate any further as i don’t want to edge into advertising in a thread, but there’s some unique options.

    Pm me and we can talk about it Chris.






    As for cpollock, they don’t seem to be of that concern, but interpretation can change by the day. You may wish to reach out to the rcmp forearms lab for their latest interpretation, but as of my most recent conversation with them they don’t care of the original caliber. Ymmv ianal etc etc. check before you go investing.
    Unfortunately they do. I had a Colt SAA recently which had been converted to 44 Special however the RCMP would not verify it as an antique unless I could prove the original caliber was not .45 or .44-40. I had to apply for a factory letter and unfortunately it turned out to have been originally 44-40. That application was denied. On another occasion I had a .44 Russian which had been converted to 44-40 and the RCMP denied that one, too. So, yes, the regulations stand: if the pre-1898 gun was originally in one of the exempt calibers, it cannot be made antique by changing the caliber and equally, if the antique is changed into one of the exempt calibers it will not be verified as an antique. As far as the .25 and .32's go, I don't think there is a .25 centerfire cartridge out there which was made pre-1898, and of the .32's all but the 32 H&R and .32 MH (as far as I know) are on the list of exemptions. .320, .32 MH and .32 H&R are considered distinct calibers and do not fall under the ".25 and .32 prohibition". I think this applies more to the ACP's.

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    I have a Mk III Webley. According to the Webley story these were produced from 1897-1899 which straddles the 1898 cut off date. So my understanding is that a low serial number means that its antique while a high serial number means its restricted and not currently transferable.

    - Is this correct?
    - Does anyone know what the serial number cutoff is?

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    Business Member Old Guns Canada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 55recce View Post
    I have a Mk III Webley. According to the Webley story these were produced from 1897-1899 which straddles the 1898 cut off date. So my understanding is that a low serial number means that its antique while a high serial number means its restricted and not currently transferable.

    - Is this correct?
    - Does anyone know what the serial number cutoff is?
    The FRT lists Mk III in a variety of classifications, including antique, restricted and prohibited. You are best advised to ask the RCMP Technical Division. Apparenly serial numbers went into the low 80-thousand range but I have no idea what the cut-off would be. I stay away from anything higher than a Mk II...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Guns Canada View Post
    The FRT lists Mk III in a variety of classifications, including antique, restricted and prohibited. You are best advised to ask the RCMP Technical Division. Apparenly serial numbers went into the low 80-thousand range but I have no idea what the cut-off would be. I stay away from anything higher than a Mk II...
    This right here, with antiques, ensuring the facts are correct is most important. There are many antiques with unclear production information and the CFP doesn't buy grey, only black and white and you definitely don't want to own a "maybe antique". That's why I like antiques with clear dating, Webley MK II and down for example are all 100% known to be pre 1898. I found the CFP quite good at working with confirming antique status, they're also very open to reviewing any documentation and sources you have. For example I was in a discussion with them about an antique Norwegian Nagant which has surprisingly good production information out there and they were very open to reviewing the information on it. Happy antique journeys, it's a fun hobby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55recce View Post
    I have a Mk III Webley. According to the Webley story these were produced from 1897-1899 which straddles the 1898 cut off date. So my understanding is that a low serial number means that its antique while a high serial number means its restricted and not currently transferable.

    - Is this correct?
    - Does anyone know what the serial number cutoff is?


    I have looked into this also - from my understanding, RCMP treats Webley MK III's as antique if serial numbers are below 5000.

    Linking to another CGN thread on this subject: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...and-other-info

    As with anything, YMMV, best to confirm with RCMP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpollock View Post
    I have looked into this also - from my understanding, RCMP treats Webley MK III's as antique if serial numbers are below 5000.

    Linking to another CGN thread on this subject: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...and-other-info

    As with anything, YMMV, best to confirm with RCMP.
    That's good information to have. I never considered Mk III's as antique. I'm with Thiopento - I don't like "grey". I'd rather be sure... Thanks for your replies, folks!

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    CGN Ultra frequent flyer Lee Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Guns Canada View Post
    Before I continue, please note that I am not a lawyer or police officer, and my knowledge of Canadian Antique Gun Law is based strictly on my own experience and observations. The “Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms” (SOR/98-464) states that a firearm is deemed antique if it is one of the following (I am leaving out shotguns and rifles):
    ...snip...
    3. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.
    ...snip....
    The Colt Single Action Army was designed for the official US Service Cartridge used in 1872 - known today as .44 S&W "American". The US Cavalry wasn't happy with this S&W cartridge and told Colt to design a new cartridge for their new gun.

    The fact that the Registry is currently refusing to de-register Colt SAA's (designed for the .44S&W American cartridge) without a letter is not law, it is a policy based in factual error.

    As an added error, the Registry is refusing to de-register SAA's which are logged in the book as being for A .44C(artridge) or A .45C(artridge).

    This is a known issue with Colt records - the majority of the shipping records record BORE diameter rather than the Cartridge chambered in the cylinder.

    This has resulted in original .45 British cartridge chambered and .44 S&W Russian revolvers fitted with "Colt Frontier Six-Shooter" marked barrels being stripped of their original cylinders and re-fitted with .45 Colt/.44-40 cylinders by owners trying to "correct" what they believed to be modified original guns.

    An interesting case study is Colt revolvers shipped to Von Oppen in England - Colt records are apparently full of letters from Von Oppen complaining that guns he ordered in European cartridges were sent with the wrong chambered cylinders and barrel lengths.
    It was such a problem that initially Von Oppen sent the guns back, then he resorted to cannibalizing stock guns to correct orders, but soon was sent replacement cylinders and barrels so that he could do his own corrections.
    https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...evolver-letter
    https://www.coltforum.com/threads/on...olvers.362303/
    here is a good example
    Last edited by Lee Enfield; 10-27-2023 at 03:01 PM.
    BSN from the Republic of Alberta

    http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/

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