Buyer Beware!

[Old Guns Canada]

It is surprising how often I come across listings on classified ad sites and even auction sites where the seller claims "antique status" on handguns which are at the very least doubtful and at most possibly prohibited. I don't know if the vendors simply do not know, or if they purposely try to unload an undesirable piece on an unsuspecting customer. It is very important for a buyer to do his research before paying good money for something which may turn out to be nearly worthless. The most glaring examples are those which could be either antique or modern - those of which the manufacturing dates extend beyond January 1, 1898. A good example is the Remington Double Deringer. It was made from about 1866 until 1935. The design changed little over the 69 years of its manufacture, and unless you look at it closely, you would not be able to tell the difference: those marked in a single barrel address line REMINGTON ARMS CO. ILION NY or REMINGTON ARMS UMC ILION NY were made from 1888 to 1935, and unless you have proof that it was made before January 1, 1898, it would be prohibited. Unfortunately it is not enough to have a print-out of the RCMP's FRT tables. The tables list every possible FRT option from antique to prohibited, and do not mean anything. Only the actual letter from the RCMP listing the gun and its serial number will be acceptable as proof of antique status. The FRT print-out can only be used if every entry for the gun's variants is listed as antique.
Another problem may be an antique gun which has been altered to another caliber. While the FRT states that changing the caliber from an obsolete to a modern one does not necessarily affect the gun's antique status, there are conditions: for example, if the gun was originally made in one of the "exempt" calibers - like .38 Colt, .44-40 or 45 Colt, changing the caliber will not gain it antique status. So, if you are considering purchasing an antique-frame handgun which has been altered to take modern ammunition, be sure you have proof that the original gun was indeed a bonafide antique. Again, a print-out of FRT's is not good enough. The RCMP will require proof that the original gun was made before 1 January, 1898 and in an acceptable caliber. In the past, I have had to apply for factory letters from Colt and S&W to prove the original configuration. If you end up paying a lot of money for what may turn out to be a prohibited weapon, you will be stuck with an expensive paperweight... Buyer Beware!

[Jay]

Question: Is the "1 January, 1898" date arbitrary? Was it picked out of thin air by the powers that be?

Many makes/models of handguns were produced before this date & carried on beyond it...

Insight on this issue, from an expert such as yourself, would be interesting indeed!

Cheers
Jay

[kapanak]

Question: Is the "1 January, 1898" date arbitrary? Was it picked out of thin air by the powers that be?

Many makes/models of handguns were produced before this date & carried on beyond it...

Insight on this issue, from an expert such as yourself, would be interesting indeed!

Cheers
Jay

I believe it was to mirror US laws, which also have a cutoff of 1898. Of course, per usual, Canada had to make it even more complicated with the rules around blackpowder handguns and precussion cap replicas of antiques, as well as weird calibre rules and exemptions. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...itions-antique

[KotKotofeich]

Also, weren't the serials recycled in the antique range for the derringers? i.e. could you have a non-antique accompanied by a RCMP letter for an antique?

I spoke with a guy who bought a Bodeo thinking it was antique - it was most definitely not with a year stamped on the frame... :/ Awkward.

I believe it was to mirror US laws, which also have a cutoff of 1898. Of course, per usual, Canada had to make it even more complicated with the rules around blackpowder handguns and precussion cap replicas of antiques, as well as weird calibre rules and exemptions. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...itions-antique

US cutoff is at the end of 1898 - 1 year later than Canadian.

[Old Guns Canada]

Good questions! I am not sure who came up with the 1 January 1898 date. I suspect it may have something to do with the invention of cordite - the first smokeless propellant which made guns a lot more powerful. As far as "recycled" serial numbers goes, yes, Remington used batch numbers on their deringers, and for that reason the numbers mean nothing to the RCMP. It's all a matter of what the barrel address says. In 1886 Remington went into receivership and was reorganized as Remington Arms Company. They sold off the remaining inventory of the two-line address marked deringers and came out with a new one. It simply says in a single line Remington Arms Co. and was used from 1889 to 1911. The numbering is in batches, so serial numbers mean nothing. In 1909, the UMC line was added to the barrel address. Although collectors have noted differences in the size and length of the barrel address, and the thickness of the hinge, no one can prove that these changes were made at any particular time - especially if before or after January 1, 1898. So, in short, only the one's marked with the barrel address either on the side, between the barrels, or on top in two lines, are guaranteed to be antiques.

Two-line barrel address, made between about 1872 to 1886.

[brandon_ha]

Good questions! I am not sure who came up with the 1 January 1898 date. I suspect it may have something to do with the invention of cordite - the first smokeless propellant which made guns a lot more powerful. As far as "recycled" serial numbers goes, yes, Remington used batch numbers on their deringers, and for that reason the numbers mean nothing to the RCMP. It's all a matter of what the barrel address says. In 1886 Remington went into receivership and was reorganized as Remington Arms Company. They sold off the remaining inventory of the two-line address marked deringers and came out with a new one. It simply says in a single line Remington Arms Co. and was used from 1889 to 1911. The numbering is in batches, so serial numbers mean nothing. In 1909, the UMC line was added to the barrel address. Although collectors have noted differences in the size and length of the barrel address, and the thickness of the hinge, no one can prove that these changes were made at any particular time - especially if before or after January 1, 1898. So, in short, only the one's marked with the barrel address either on the side, between the barrels, or on top in two lines, are guaranteed to be antiques.

Two-line barrel address, made between about 1872 to 1886.

You’re making me want a derringer now…

[Old Guns Canada]

Also, weren't the serials recycled in the antique range for the derringers? i.e. could you have a non-antique accompanied by a RCMP letter for an antique?

I spoke with a guy who bought a Bodeo thinking it was antique - it was most definitely not with a year stamped on the frame... :/ Awkward.



US cutoff is at the end of 1898 - 1 year later than Canadian.

When you read the "fine print" on the antique letters it states that the letter has been issued "based on the information you supplied". - which means they have a way out if it turns out that you provided wrong or misleading information. For example, if you had a picture of another deringer's pre-1898 barrel address and submitted it with your post-1898 deringer pictures and its batch number, the Technical Division may in fact be duped into believing that you have an antique and issue an antique letter with your batch number on it. I'm sure it's been tried, but if you get caught, who knows what the charges would be...

[kapanak]

This begs the question of what part of an antique firearm is considered the antique firearm. These are old guns, sometimes they may need repairs. How far down the Ship of Theseus spectrum could one take an antique before it is no longer an antique? You mentioned something regarding the calibre changes, but what if the calibre is not changed, can one repair or replace the barrel or cylinder in a revolver for example? How does that apply to muzzleloading rifles and pistols that need a barrel or lock repair or replacement, or even a wooden stock replacement? The post regarding the derringers could suggest it is specific to each case and there's no generalized rule for this, but interesting to consider as a thought experiment at least.

[Old Guns Canada]

This begs the question of what part of an antique firearm is considered the antique firearm. These are old guns, sometimes they may need repairs. How far down the Ship of Theseus spectrum could one take an antique before it is no longer an antique? You mentioned something regarding the calibre changes, but what if the calibre is not changed, can one repair or replace the barrel or cylinder in a revolver for example? How does that apply to muzzleloading rifles and pistols that need a barrel or lock repair or replacement, or even a wooden stock replacement? The post regarding the derringers could suggest it is specific to each case and there's no generalized rule for this, but interesting to consider as a thought experiment at least.

It's the frame that needs to be antique. Nothing else matters, age wise... You can make repairs, add composite plastic grips or laser sights, if you want. It's the frame that has to have been made before January 1 1898. This is an interesting requirement because we know, for example, that Webley did not purchase any solid frames after 1893, however many of their solid frame handguns - like the bulldogs and MP's - were assembled well into the 20th century. But, since the frames are pre-1898, the whole gun is antique, no matter when it was assembled. The only thing you can't do is convert your antique to one of the calibers mentioned in the "exceptions" (.32 Colt and S&W, .38 CF etc. etc.).
This is why many shooters (especially now with that handgun freeze in effect) want an antique frame to rebuild - antique Colt SAA frames are popular for rebuild as a 357 mag or 38 Special. The parts you can buy from either Colt or one of the Italian reproductions makers are fairly easily made to fit, and there is nothing to prevent you from doing this - as long as you can prove that the ORIGINAL gun qualified as an antique. If your Colt SAA began life as a 45 Colt or 44 Winchester, all the modifications won't make it antique...

[tiriaq]

Good questions! I am not sure who came up with the 1 January 1898 date. I suspect it may have something to do with the invention of cordite - the first smokeless propellant which made guns a lot more powerful. As far as "recycled" serial numbers goes, yes, Remington used batch numbers on their deringers, and for that reason the numbers mean nothing to the RCMP. It's all a matter of what the barrel address says. In 1886 Remington went into receivership and was reorganized as Remington Arms Company. They sold off the remaining inventory of the two-line address marked deringers and came out with a new one. It simply says in a single line Remington Arms Co. and was used from 1889 to 1911. The numbering is in batches, so serial numbers mean nothing. In 1909, the UMC line was added to the barrel address. Although collectors have noted differences in the size and length of the barrel address, and the thickness of the hinge, no one can prove that these changes were made at any particular time - especially if before or after January 1, 1898. So, in short, only the one's marked with the barrel address either on the side, between the barrels, or on top in two lines, are guaranteed to be antiques.

Two-line barrel address, made between about 1872 to 1886.

Cordite was invented almost 10 years prior to 1898, shortly after the French adopted their "Poudre B".